An Electronic Symposium on the History of Computers and the Teaching of Writing co-sponsored by Rhetnet and Netoric Closing Discussion June 8, 1995 8:30 p.m. EDT ['You' in the discussion below is Nick Carbone, organizer of the symposium and keeper of the MOOlog.] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= nickc shows slide #1. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Welcome to the Rhetnet/Netoric Closing MOO for the E-Symposium on The History of Computers and the Teaching of Writing Before proceeding, a reminder that this discussion will be logged and published in Rhetnet along with the e-mail messages from the symposium. To Quote from Tari and Greg's opening slide for Tuesday Cafes: You are of course welcome to remain anonymous, but at this time we invite all of yo who wish to do so to identify yourselves by your real life names, and, if you like, where you are from. We now pause briefly for introductions. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Eric looks partly. Janice is Janice Cook, Kapiolani Community College, Honolulu Marcy is Marcy Bauman, partly of University of Michigan-Dearborn and partly from her garden in Ann Arbor . . . Spif is Bryan Venable, University of Missouri - Columbia brice is Brice Matson, University of Missouri-Columbia Eric says, "I can't wait to see how that bit plays in print, Charlie. Must have been a bit of a challenge, I suppose" Mauve_Guest says, "Charlie is Charlie Moran, UMass-Amherst" cath is Catherine Spann, Univ of Arkansas @ Little Rock Guest Kathy bBurnett of Rutgers Univresity nickc is Nick Carbone, UMass Amherst & Marlboro College, VT (in fall) Eric is Eric Crump, Interversity judi is Judith Kirkpatrick, Kapi'olani C.C.--Honolulu Mauve_Guest says, "Eric -- editing the Moo was a piece of cake --- hardly needed to do anything!" GregS Is Greg Siering, Ball State University> Eric says, "wow, that's great!" brice eats the piece of cake. cath [to Eric]: Interversity??? Flame_Guest says, "Flame Guest is Darlene Sybert, University of Missouri, Columbia" Eric says, "hi kathy" Guest says, "Hi" mday [the rhetronymical] materializes out of thin air. Marcy thinks reading Moo transcripts is only difficult for folks who don't MOO nickc shows slide #2. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * We'd like to begin by thanking Gail Hawisher, Paul LeBlanc, Charlie Moran, and Cindy Selfe for their participation and their snapshots. They gave us a range of thoughtful and provocative considerations on such issues as tools of research and historical documentation; the community's sense of itself; how we make and share knowledge; and intimations of where we might be heading. Their book, _Computers and the Teaching of Writing in American Postsecondary Education, 1979-1994: A History_, is scheduled to be released this fall by Ablex Publishing * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Marcy hugs Mday mday waves Mauve_Guest says, "@more" brice cheers for the snapshooters. Mauve_Guest says, "Sorry, folks. The odd bit of garbage --- it's mine. New at this stuff." nickc wonders if that's anything like schnapps-shooters brice smiles. Mauve_Guest says, "Hi Mike" You say, "we're used to odd bits in this forum" nickc shows slide #3. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Rather than attempting to list 'highlights' from the e-mail discussion which went on for a little over four weeks, we'd like instead to have those who participated in the symposium as either presenters, participating posters-of-messages, or participating readers-of-messages, begin by sharing their sense of what was most interesting or thought provoking for them. Were there any ideas or issues raised in the symposium which you will be thinking further about, that you may choose to write about, teach about, or find yourself thinking differently about? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * You say, "That's if for slides" Mauve_Guest says, "Kay Moran closes the door and says goodnight. " You say, "Goodnight, Kay" judi promises to brb judi goes home. Guest has left. Spif says, "hmm" Mauve_Guest says, "I was struck by our collective need to figure out who we were, relative to English, teaching, research, computers. " Janice wonders what we did to scare folks off. Marcy says, "Well, you know, I keep wondering how these new modes of discourse are changing what we do . . . fate of the book, and all that . . ." mday will be thinking more and more about the differences and translations between "academic" writing and "Moo and Email" writing. And of course the place of both in the contemporary comosition and communication class... brice says, "My bookshelf just fell over in real life." brice will brb. Spif [to brice]: eek Straight from the middle of the Pacific Ocean, here's Judi. Marcy says, "How utterly cyberspatial . . . having his bookshelf collapse at that particular moment." You say, "i noticed that too, Charlie; it was sort of like navigating a ship with a sextnat, defining ourselves by fixed points" Mauve_Guest says, "Sorry, Brice. Books hurt!" Guest has arrived. Guest has left. Eric says, "the whole structure of the symposium--how it wrapped itself around the print product that served as its point of departure, how the book's authors straddled two media, how the participants will view and value the result..." Marcy says, "And the difficulties of capturing it all on Rhetnet" mday has a feeling he's talking about the WRONG thread, but that's OK. Guest has arrived. Guest has left. Mauve_Guest says, "We talked about including a disk with the book --- packed w. documents --- but the logistics of it ---- just getting the book done was about as much as we could do. But the disk, or a CD-ROM, or putting the whole works on a web-page --- all good ideas. " Eric [to mday]: all threads are good threads Guest has arrived. judi grabs guest Guest has left. Eric wishes it was possible to slip the rhetnet url into the book before its press run is done! Marcy says, "Yeah, but the difficukties of linking it all really seem to me to be the Difficulties of the Future." Janice [to Eric]: Unless they are the thread that holds your clothes together. 8-) Eric says, "wouldn't that be an interesting link? " Mauve_Guest says, "It was interesting, too -- we wanted to include on the disk early issues of C&C --- but they were no longer digital --- someone had housecleaned the disks." Marcy says, "AAARRRGHHH! Housecleaned the disks! After only ten years!!" You say, "Working all those messages into something navigable, links upon links, looks time consuming; a real editorial chore, in ways that wouldn't be a problem in linear stuff" Guest has arrived. Eric [to Marcy]: definitely. the web of texts created by the symposium has only just been born. it still needs shaping, extending... Marcy says, "IN ways that wouldn't be POSSIBLE in linear stuff." Guest has left. brice returns shaken but alive. Mauve_Guest says, "Marcy -- you're right -- text is linear --- but, given memory, resonance, that sort of stuff, you can work against the line. Like music." Flame_Guest says, "Guest must have learned to toggle!" Janice [to brice]: Welcome back. Eric says, "speaking of which, I'm wondering if we should be thinking ahead to a follow-up mini-symposium a few weeks or months after the book is out" Marcy says, "IN a book, Charlie? Work against the line? Isn't that what the reader inevitably does?" brice [to Janice]: Thanks. Janice says, "I was struck by what it means to write history. And the fact that writing it changes it." Marcy says, "neat idea, Eric." Mauve_Guest says, "Eric --- we may just go and hide!" You say, "I was just thinking, hypertext may be structured in web likeways, circular, and the reader can make choices, but the reading still is sequential, one thing after another, so sometimes it feels as linear as a book" mday thinks it would be possible to scan C & C BACK in digital form (^_^) Eric grins at charlie Marcy says, "Aw, Charlie, then we can talk about you behind your book -- er, back." Eric [to mday]: good project for some unflappable grad student! brice says, "But the links make it always unfinished." Marcy says, "Like a conference, Nick -- hypertextual choices, but only one session you can go to at a time." mday flaps in the wind. Mauve_Guest says, "Michael --- we did think about scanning, too --- but minutes/page, plus fixing the 1% errors, given the type and the present tech --- would have taken the proverbial 'deep pocket' to make that happen. Almost faster to re-type. But some day..." Janice [to Marcy]: The hypertextual conference allows attendance at all sessions eventually though. Not possible otherwise. Mauve_Guest says, "Marcy -- ouch!" mday [to Mauve_Guest]: I think a start would be greatest hits, and I'll bet there would be volunteers (tho I may be outta my mind!) Marcy says, "I was thinking f2f conferences, Janet, but you're right . . . still, even in hypertext the conference is always changing so you don't share the experience with other participants in the same way." GregS would volunteer for a few articles...this fall. Marcy says, "Janice. Dunno where Janet came from, sorry." nickc [to mday]: I wonder how much of that best of stuff is already on a disk somewhere, either with the author or publisher. Janice [to Marcy]: That's ok, I answer to both. mday would bet there are a few author who might be proud to get articles on line and would help. Mauve_Guest says, "Our own Project Gutenberg. Cool!" Marcy thinks asking authors is a great idea. Spif says, "what's funny is that it seems to me that hyperTEXT is a small fraction of emerging new media technologies. hypermedia, multimedia, networking... those are the important things. hypertext is pretty dull and not very innovative, by itself. it's pictures, sound, and networked information that make the WWW popular and truly useful." Eric says, "but maybe if somebody like one of the Four Historians did a seminar on the history of C&W, one of the students' projects could be to scan and correct a certain number of C&C (or other) articles. might take a few semesters, but..." nickc thinks the next wave should be simultaneous publishing--an article can now go online and in print mday [to Mauve_Guest]: Just bit by bit, what seems important and what people would volunteer to do... Marcy thinks that scanning articles is really scut-work and if she were a student, she'd feel . . . exploited by it. Eric says, "of course, peg syverson may already have plans to do something like that since she's putting back issues on the web" Mauve_Guest says, "It's awful how fast this stuff goes away. I've still got my Apple II in the garage, but I don't think I can remember how to use Applewriter 1, and have lost the manual, so whatever I may have written back then is really gone from bit-land" Spif [to nickc]: considering advances in printing technology, I think that's feasible alrady and will become more common in the near future mday [to nickc]: that's what I'm asking all the editors and publishers I works with to do. With varying degrees of success. But in many cases it does help sell print copy... Marcy nods Charlie. Utterly awful. Eric [to Marcy]: but it's a good way to get real intimate with the text, with history Marcy says, "Think how long the Dead Sea Scrolls survived." brice ponders his Apple IIe in light of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Eric does scut work all the time-- like marking up the text from a certain symposium :) nickc wonders if there'll be Dead MOO Logs in 3,000 years Janice chuckles at Dead MOO Logs. Eric LOL at nickc mday says, "or Daed moo logs" Marcy ponders Eric's scut work. When Eric does it, it doesn't seem like scut work. Maybe cuz it's self-selected. GregS sits back and wonders about our discussions of putting old print-based texts online...mostly for the sake of their survival. Spif says, "what I'm interested in is the death of publishing as we know it - where papers and books are replaced with forums and logs" brice drops Dead MOO Log. Mauve_Guest says, "We found our selves working with ephemeral stuff --- e.g. conference programs from CCCC and NCTE.The only copies, one each, are at NCTE --- unless someone, somewhere, has decided to collect them --- like baseball cards." GregS has so many MOO logs that everyone here would feel the earth shudder if he dropped them all. Spif grins. You say, "I don't think publishing as we know it will die so much as grow extra arms and legs and find ways to commodify what's online." Marcy says, "And what if someone had typed the conf. stuff in on an Adam . . ." brice smiles at GregS. brice [to Marcy]: A what/ Marcy says, "There you go. My point. My husband programs with folks who don't know what a Commodore 64 is . . ." Mauve_Guest says, "Marcy --- the Adam was a six-foot Kaypro, right? " sm materializes out of thin air. Janice [to Marcy]: There are still some of those around. brice shudders. sm waves to all brice waves to sm. Eric says, "not just survival, greg. Extension. Bring 'em back alive! let's talk with those old texts & see if they have anything new to say" sm's real name is "Susanmarie Harrington". sm (#10658) can be reached via email as: sharrin@indyvax.iupui.edu Marcy says, "The Adam used cassette tapes to store data." GregS [to nickc]: look at all the print books that are either going fully online or having at least a sample chapter online. nickc waves sm Spif [to nickc]: I wish it wouldn't happen, but I'm afraid you may be right about that. old wine in new bottles - that's what the web is primarily about right now. the same old commercial, corporate, publishing-oriented crud. brice [to Marcy]: Sounds ugly. I don't want to find one of those in a cave someday. Marcy says, "Ppl are interested in setting up book databases and licensing folks (like libraries) to access their collections." If you code it, they will come. --GregS Spif wonders if it would be legal to ban corporations from the web... probably not. brice laughs a little too hysterically. Mauve_Guest says, "Just thinking about all the books I want to use for courses next year that are out of print. It's almost as if print is obsoleting itself." You say, "Albion has Shea's netiquette on line, the toc and chapter four for reading. For 6.95 you get a password to access the rest; for 19, they'llmail you the book in print" Marcy says, "What scares me is the thought of being able tocharge folks per citation . . . every time you access something, you pay." judi says, "that's a logical approach to publishing" % You have new mail in /usr/spool/mail/nickc Marcy says, "Logical from whose point of view?" brice [to Marcy]: E-cash for bibliographies? mday [to nickc]: starting to sound like a good model if they have to make money to stay alive... judi often reads parts of books in the bookstore anyway cath is troubled to find that it is increasingly difficult to sit still and read a book these days, but can sit at this blinking screen all day! Marcy says, "I really think we have to be concerned about Fair Use here, folks." judi [marcy]: i was referring to nick's remark nickc [to Mauve_Guest]: printing is like movies now, if it isn't a hit right off, it's remaindered fast then out of print. They don't give books as much time to find a public Eric [to cath]: I have the same problem Marcy says, "OH. Judi. Sorry." Spif says, "I have come to the realization that a great number of the best stuff on the web is tie-ins to other media." mday [to cath]: now that is really troubling, and yet I am becoming the same way. I can't turn the text of the book green and change the font to please me... brice [to Marcy]: What constitutes Fair Use? Spif says, "Star Trek, Batman, you name it" cath Besides that, it moves so slow! Eric says, "except it's not really a problem, because what I want to read is mostly splattered across screens..." Marcy says, "Brice, I'm not sure -- but Fair Use is what governs how much you can photocopy of a book or journal, say, and how you can use it." nickc [to Marcy]: that is a real issue--fair use now is that you can use a reasonable amount of text for citation or reference in an article, but if you publish a book for sale, you'be got to get permission for every quote brice says, "And you can't cut and paste from a book without one of those giant things that flash and grind alot." sm says, "although some of the fair use for pint , I mean print, has gotten too complicated latey oops, lately." mday [to brice]: like for example, fair use of one photocoy just for your own research vs making 30 copies for all your students... Marcy says, "And lotsa times get $$, too, nick." Coyote [Master of Coyoteness] materializes out of thin air. mday looks photocoy. brice [to mday]: True, but we still make the thirty copies and ignore Fair Use. Hard to do that in an electronic environment. Marcy changes mday's font. brice waves to Coyote. MikeS [Narc Detector] materializes out of thin air. MikeS waves brice waves to mike. mday [to sm]: yes, and that's exactly the problem. The system has to be streamlined. changed radically but fairly. GregS thinks that if printers start losing money to online reading, that money will go to the companies who make large, readable screens. Janice alohas MikeS. sm says, "but it's easy to downlad and then share the file, no?" Marcy hugs mikes. Mauve_Guest says, "The Fair Use laws have attempted to come to terms with copier-tech; and the initiative has been entirely publichers --- even our own, NCTE, which charges for coping stuff from CCCC, none of which goes to the author!" mday [to brice]: Yes we do, but is it fair? brice [to sm]: I just thought of that myself. : ) You say, "I remember Paul saying that the studio which put out Branagh's Henry V wanted something like 600 dollars for him to use a small clip as part of the multimedia demonstration of his students work when he showed it at Anne Arbor" brice [to mday]: Um . . . is it fair that a Junior College's budget can't pay for copyright privileges. Coyote goes home. mday [to nickc]: sounds unfair for educational use. oughta be a sliding scale I think. Marcy says, "Seems to me fair use protects the people who sell, not the people who educate." sm nods at Marcy mday [to brice]: what I just said. Reasonable fees. Flame_Guest says, "the people who sell or the author" Mauve_Guest Charlie nods at Marcy Spif thinks the whole idea of copyright is a fabrication of capitalism. Marcy says, "And we need to be worried about that as folks figure out how to make the Web a pay-per-view." nickc [to mday,]: who knows, it coulda been their sliding scale; this is the land of movie which gross 600 million worldwide but don't make a profit mday says, "generally the ones who sell. Academic authors make very little, usually." Marcy says, "The people who sell. Certainly not the author." mday [to nickc]: isn't it amazing? I think that's doublespeak or even doublethink! Flame_Guest [to Spif]: but it makes it possible for people to eat while they create. cath says, "more like doublecross" sm says, "and the people who read academic authors generally make very litle as well :)" Spif [to Flame_Guest]: under capitalism, at least. MikeS nods sm and smiles brice [to mday]: At least doublethink! Spif shrugs at Flame_Guest. You say, "Once everyone gets tenured, if that's still around in the next few years, they can insist on publishing simultaneously, but until then, for job security, academics dont get paid for journal articles except in promotions" Flame_Guest [to Spif]: I wouldn't have it any other way. mday thinks even tenure could be on the way out if some get their way... Mauve_Guest says, "Something that made the book hard to write --- and hypermedia wouldn't have helped: differential rates of change --- tech changing exponentially every year, and comp. studies/English just sitting there!" KarlaK materializes out of thin air. Spif [to Flame_Guest]: I'd prefer if things _did_ go some other way, but I think that strays from the topic at hand nickc [to Mauve_Guest]: in what why did that make the book harder to write? brice [to Mauve_Guest]: True, but comp/rhet is now taking off. did that help any? mday [to Mauve_Guest]: but the C &W sector of Comp/english did not just sit there! Eric says, "just curious: How many of you expect to use the history symposium web pages as a scholarly resource in conjunction with the book?" Spif waves at KarlaK. cath [to Mauve_Guest]: Do you see that getting worse, or starting to move more in the same direction? KarlaK wave Spif % You have new mail in /usr/spool/mail/nickc Marcy says, "hadn't thought of it Eric. But now that you mention it . . ." brice [to Eric]: What do you mean? mday would, eric % illegal variable name. Mauve_Guest says, "Seem to have struck a nerve! Yes, we were racing the tech --- but our own field's theory/practice moved, and move, pretty slowly." Marcy thinks tech. is really only beginning to accelerate. MikeS groans at the thought of tech moving faster brice [to Mauve_Guest]: True, but its two thousand years old. Marcy graons, too. Spif says, "starting with the late 20th century, I think people will always be racing technology - and losing :)" Spif shrugs. MikeS [to mday]: thanx sm says, "I'd use them differently , Eric. I like reading books to see what others' arguments are. But the web pages let me know what specific others in cyberspace think of those arguments in the book" Spif says, "as a whole, anyway; there are always going to be some people who are riding the wave rather than following it." Eric [to brice]: I mean, have you thought of the net conversations as a scholarly resource? would you cite from them (where appropriate) if you wrote an article that dealt in some way with the history of computers and writing? nickc [to sm]: cyberspace's is like a meta-hyper commentary sm nods to nick Mauve_Guest says, "Seecath -- no signs of slowing tech; and signs of Comp Studies becoming more and more the place of part-time instructors. English, too --- we're losing ground absolutely and relatively, if the MLA lists are a good indicator." brice [to Eric]: Definitely!! Marcy says, "Oh, Eric, _that's_ what you mean. Well, of course." sm says, "*universities* are beocoming more and more places of part-time instructors, not just comp" MikeS [to Mauve_Guest]: but that is a humanities wide trend. brice [to Eric]: I already cite from e-mail messages and web pages. Not much of a leap to a MOO log or conference transcript. mday says, "nothing better than them web pages for the move into the metadiscursive realm, where we can scrutinize our navels, er hem, I mean what progress we have made, and how that progress is construed... (^_^)" Marcy says, "But Charlie, that's true of almost all white-collar jobs in this country. Not special to us." sm chortles Mauve_Guest says, "MikeS--- right. We're in the same presently-leaky boat as the rest of the humanities." cath [to Eric]: (catching up) I expect to use quite a bit of new conversations, etc in my (soon to be written) thesis MikeS is hitching his boat to (ever floating) technology Eric great! brice [to Eric]: But you were talking about the web pages and the HARD book, right? Mauve_Guest Charlie applauds Mike S Tari materializes out of thin air. sm says, "i must admit that I enjoy having online conversations more than I enjoy reading transcripts of them, though" mday hoorahs those planning on dissing on it! brice waves to Tari. Marcy waves Tari. Spif says, "there are many predictions floating around that the average person living today will have at least 2 careers in his/her lifetime" mday [to sm]: too true! Tari does the "whups, it's thursday" dance Marcy says, "Spif, I thought it was 4." nickc [to Mauve_Guest]: ironically some of that comes from the aura of the cult of technology, where science adn math initiatives are big, and text is just a small piece of the action, and comp and English are largely text based disciplines...we're becomeing antiquated in the eyes of many segments of society Spif [to Marcy]: it varies, but most of the ones I've heard say only 2 mday [to Spif]: I have already had about 12. what does that make me? nickc [to Spif]: only two Janice [to Spif]: Some of us already have reached that point. Spif [to mday]: better than average? :) Eric says, "next question: if you have an opportunity to consult those web pages for scholarly material, will you add your own work to the mix as you go? in other words, if you cite something there it follows that you're writing something relevant to that conversation. would you continue building the online history of C&W?" MikeS nods to mday Spif nods at Janice [weary]. nickc [to mday,]: that makes you six people sm says, "nick, that's probably been true since the math/science-keep-up-with-th e-russians stuff started edecades ago" KarlaK [to mday]: cheaper by the dozen? cath says, "The thought keeps nibbling at the edges of my mind of writing the dang thing in hper" brice is already six people. He shakes his own hand. mday [to nickc]: you mean that text itself is becoming a thing of the past? Marcy says, "And before then, sm. Back into the last century, too." Spif says, "I've had several JOBS, but I wouldn't consider any of them a career, per se" Tari says, "what are we counting?" Eric says, "do it, cath!" Marcy says, "Careers, Tari." Eric [to Tari]: past lives cath says, "writing it in hypertext, but don't think I'm up to the challenge in my time-frame" Mauve_Guest says, "Eric--- sure. Whjy restrict access? That is, if anyone wants access!" Tari dun think text is going away anytimesoon Spif says, "I hope my current job becomes a career..." Marcy neither. Spif grins. Tari says, "myspacebar, hoever,isanothermatterentirely" Spif grins at Eric [GPC]. mday would weave mday in too. Of course! Eric was hoping you'd say that charlie :) MikeS says, "the problem with the russian/cold war escalation in spending on math/science/technology is that the gov't bought the education=winning the cold war too well. now everyone has forgotten the reason for education the population. look at what new york's (ne" Spif says, "spacebar?what'saspacebar?" nickc [to Eric]: I'd add, if I thought it was different from what had been said. It will come to apoint where the addition might feel buried. Unless there's some way of organizing the new information so people know where it is and feel a reason to serach it out, then the reliance is on potluck Mauve_Guest says, "Eric -- Ablex may have a thing or two to say about that, however!" MikeS says, "newly passed) budget does to suny!" sm says, "organization is the key" mday thinks Ablex needs some edjikatin'! Marcy thinks Ablex wants bucks. brice laughs at Spif. mday [to MikeS]: Sadly, same here in the polar opposite of NYC KarlaK says, "i'll take some bucks too" Eric [to nickc]: you just hit upon the biggest challenge us rhetnetters now have: shaping those texts into useful frameworks of conversation, things will easily yield pertinent content and will invite continued contribution. MikeS sighs "i hear you mday! Eric says, "I'm open to suggestion!" nickc thinks thank god UMass hasn't had any budget problems... sm says, "I need to go finish sewing slipcovers--my trusty assistant has just finished ironing the seams for me" mday says, "We need to teach Ablex how to make bux and do the right thing by its increasingly wired readership." sm says, "bye all" Mauve_Guest Charlie looks askance at NickC? MikeS waves to sm nickc waves to sm Marcy says, "Online pay-per-view publishing, maday." brice [to Eric]: I think that calls for judicious use of delete keys. sm waves and exits sm has disconnected. brice puts another quarter in his computer. mday [to Marcy]: from where I sit now that seems to be the only way. I wish there were other alternatives... MikeS giggles at brice nickc [to Eric]: search and map tools to start, and an easier way of updating and upkeep,and more thanone editor doing the work Marcy says, "If pay-per-view is cheap enough, then fine. But I fear we've only seen the tip of the have/have-not iceberg." GregS has been looking for html converters and templates all day, and that causes him to wonder if anyone here has seen shareware *texts* anywhere on the Net. cath [to Marcy]: What about what acw is planning with the 21st century writing project? Marcy says, "Anybody wanna hazard a guess as to how much it costs to get your URL into Netscape's What's New?" Spif [to Marcy]: cost? mday [to Marcy]: Amen to price structure thought. I think sliding scale would be a godsend if based on a fair scale... MikeS [to Marcy]: 15,000$? Marcy says, "Try $1500 a week. A WEEK." Mauve_Guest says, "Maybe relevant: IBM is taking its Lotus case to its stockholders on the net, or at least so the *globe* says. So our stuff will be interleaved with Wall Street week!" mday falls over. Eric says, "argh. just got some kinda spam from somebody pushing SKILLMASTER (now available on the net as FREEWARE), which we can all use to easily create TESTS! Wheeeeee!" Spif says, "hmm" MikeS faints at the thought of $1500/wk KarlaK [to Marcy]: is that right? Why did i think it was a service... brice [to MikeS]: Can I agree with you on that one? Spif says, "that's interesting, they have a form to submit new ones..." Spif says, "with no mention of cost" You say, "AOL has bought the rights to webcrawler and GNN--wonder how long those tools will be readily available" Marcy says, "It's right; my husband is actually investigating online pyblishing and that's what the Netscape folks told him." MikeS [to brice]: carefully ;-) brice [to Eric]: Spammaster? brice smiles. Spif [to nickc]: that's small potatoes compared to ANS Eric wonders why everyone *seems* to be implying that the current institutional subsidy of network access and publishing is going to go away? KarlaK shakes her head Marcy says, "What about libraries? Little local libraries in podunk towns, Eric?" brice [to Eric]: Waiting for the other foot to fall? MikeS [to Eric]: because at the moment everything is considered experimental. wait until it becomes "institutionalized" and people have investment $$ to lose! GregS says, "Folks, the days of the freeware and even shareware are limited as we know them. These folks aren't paying $1500 a week so we can have free stuff. We're biting at the virtual worms dangling before us." brice [to Eric]: Fads fade. Its a fundamental law. Mauve_Guest says, "Marcy --- our town library --- town of 800 --- is going on line. We think we're ahead of the game, because we're starting with so few books!" brice [to GregS]: Yeah, bait and switch is older than comp/rhet. mday [to Eric]: scary thought but real in terms of what could happen. How can we protect it when schools are getting the short end of the stick and budgets drying up. Yes, it will be have and have not if we cannot protect it. KarlaK has to agree with Greg, but isn't happy about it Marcy says, "Going online how, Charlie?" You say, "the credo in government is privatize; and if we only work within a network of people with institutional access on theone hand, or private service on the other, then we're limiting access still to a small, relatively priveleged percentage of the population" The housekeeper arrives to cart sm off to bed. Eric says, "our public library is not only online. it's part of a consortium that provides a freenet to a four-county area" brice [to Eric]: Columbia's library? Mauve_Guest says, "Marcy --- a range of on-line databases, speeding the interlibarary loan process, that sort of thing. " Spif [to brice]: they sponsor COIN Eric [to nickc]: how's that different from scholarly publishing in print? (if it's scholarly publishing we're talkingg about) GregS says, "just like those people handing out sausage chunks at the grocery aren't doing it just to provide me with snacks...although that's all the good it does them with me." Eric [to brice]: yep MikeS [to nickc]: but if i (we) introduce all our students to the technology, they'll demand access...? Spif says, "there are also at least 3 or 4 other freenets in the state of Missouri" brice shakes his head in disbelief. Marcy says, "Yeah, I think that's great, Charlie & Eric . . . I worry about pay-per-view. Don't want to see folks prived out." Spif says, "WIN in St. Charles County, ORION in Springfield, and RollaNet in Rolla" Spif says, "plus a few others" mday [to Marcy]: Amen. Marcy priced MikeS [to Spif]: and there's NYSERNET in NY state. brice [to Spif]: Hmm. News to me. Guess I got my head in the sand. KarlaK [to Marcy]: but prived (privation/deprived) works, too Marcy says, "Do they have full Internet access." Spif [to MikeS]: heck, they're all over. is anyone here on COMMUNET? Eric [to Marcy]: pretty full Spif [to Marcy]: the four I mentioned - COIN, WIN, ORION, and RollaNet do MikeS wonders if spif is joshin' Eric [to MikeS]: he's telling it straight You say, "IT'S not fundamentally different, which is partof the problem. One of the failures of humanities academics is that they usually only talk to one anoher; an advantage for sciences is that they find things which get manufactured and create jobs. how many people read concordances fo Shakespeare or deconstructed readings fo Uncle Toms' Cabin?" Marcy says, "not me, Nick." Janice needs to go catch a bus. See you all later. KarlaK has disconnected. Spif [to MikeS]: MOREnet, the Missouri Research and Education network, is trying to get the whole state wired, from rural communities to cities Marcy says, "Maybe if they wre on the Web I would, though . . ." I don't understand that. MikeS read both when he was teaching an into lit course... mday [to nickc]: I think tech writing is a good crossing but hard for a humanist like meself to take on the marketeer stategies. Still one learns... Eric thinks we ought to change that. write (and teach writing) for real audiences. make something of value for society. nice idea anyway :) Mauve_Guest says, "Nick-- me neither. But don't tell my colleagues! Of course, they know." Janice has disconnected. Guest materializes out of thin air. MikeS [to Eric]: organic intellectuals? cath [to Eric]: Isn't that what we used to call books? Spif says, "WIN and RollaNet have web pages. http://www.win.org/ and http://www.rollanet.org/ COIN's gopher server is gopher.coin.missouri.edu, ORION's is ozarks.sgcl.lib.mo.us" Guest has left. brice [to nickc]: I read deconstructed readings of UTC, hell, I write them. mday claps real audiences. Involve as many people outside the tower of the academy as we can. Mauve_Guest says, "Ref. humanities: when we were reading the Austen and Bronte lists, there were lots of people really excited about books! And the occasional scholar would come in and kill the happy talk. Kind of like robert" MikeS says, "robert?" mday [to Mauve_Guest]: Kill? How awful! Mauve_Guest says, "I fouled up. Meant to say, kinda like Robert Browning showing up at a Browning Society meeting!" Eric says, "problem with us (comp) is that we still seem to believe we have to prepare students to write in college, which seems like a mighty shortsighted goal, to me" MikeS laughs MikeS [to Eric]: i certainly don't use that as my *only* (or pimary!) goal mday [to Eric]: well then instead what do you propose or is there even an instead? MikeS "adds an R nickc [to brice]: but unless what we learn about language and ways of reading goes beyond the walls, and to do so it has to be in plain language and in action, there's no reason for people tothink what we do matters, because to them it really doesnt GregS [to Eric]: Who is the 'we' there? No matte what people in comp think, there are still calls from the rest of the university to keep teaching academic writing...the stuff that never takes anyway. MikeS [to mday]: writing to communicate. writing to effectively express. writing to make the world as it might/should/could be? brice nods to nickc mday [to nickc]: yes to language that results in action or some tangible result. That can make a difference in the perception of what we do... Marcy likes writing to make the world. Guest materializes out of thin air. judi says, "@quit" judi has disconnected. MikeS makes his world through writing, pointing to his MOO spaces Mauve_Guest says, "Greg, Mike S: yes! We're either drones or subversives. I guess I choose the second." MikeS giggles Eric says, "I dunno greg. I don't think the rest of the academy really wants us to teach students how to write for the academy. it's impossible to do, anyway. " brice [to nickc]: I agree but it has value to a small community doesn't it? nickc [to Eric]: it would be interesting to find out the percentage of students who drop out of college after taking a first year writing course, but who do writing after dropping out who find what they've learned applicable mday says, "yes, to make the world. I like that marcy" MikeS says, "a subversive drone might be effective..." MikeS is subversive Marcy says, "The academy wants no comma splices. The academy wants a scapegoat." Eric [to GregS]: are we at the mercy of the rest of the academy? mday is both. Definitely. Guest says, "Sorry I'm late. What are you all talking about?" brice [to Eric]: Can you mailme the log of this? Mauve_Guest Charlie laughs with Mike S brice [to Eric]: I gotta go. The housekeeper arrives to cart KarlaK off to bed. Eric [to brice]: sure brice [to Eric]: thanks. MikeS says, "bye brice!" nickc [to brice]: yes, it does; and some of it is fascinating, but fewer and fewer people see that small community as worth underwriting Spif waves at brice. Eric says, "you got it, marcy" brice waves good bye to all you old Mudders. Mauve_Guest Charlie waves at Brice brice has disconnected. nickc waves to brice The housekeeper arrives to cart Janice off to bed. Marcy may be a mudder, but she's not old. mday says, "Hi Guest, we are talking about the history/future of computers and writing, the book, virtual text..." Guest has disconnected. The housekeeper arrives to remove Guest. Eric suspects that if we just helped students develop as thinkers and writers and rhetors they would be more likely to satisfy the rest of the academy Marcy says, "mday, guess you scared Guest." MikeS says, "i think humanists suffer from their own hubris. they forgot the service they were trading for the freedom to study literature (or philosophy, etc)" GregS [to Eric]: Well, when you compound that with what we were saying earlier about our part-timer status in most cases, the situation does look kinda sad at times. Mauve_Guest says, "Mday scares me too!" mday says, "nuts. All that typing! (^_^)" mday says, "Charlie! How come?" Marcy laughs Mauve_Guest says, "Must be oedipal, mday!" mday rolls on the floor laughing. MikeS says, "did may say BOO?" Eric says, "It's like the grammar situation but on a grander scale: the best way to teach grammar is to NOT teach grammar. students who acquire fluency and confidence in particular writing situations will naturally eliminate most grammatical problems..." mday makes goosebumps and other unnamable bumps rise on everyone's clammy skin. Marcy nods Eric. GregS picks up on what mikes says about literature and adds that he often questions writing courses here that support traditional academic writing in having students writes academic essays about literature. MikeS nods marcy nodding eric MikeS cheers gregs on "say more" Mauve_Guest says, "Thinking about class --- we've been the folk who polished the 'lower classes' language. We can't seem to throw out that part." mday amens Eric. that does seem to work for my students if I tie it to ethos in writing for the real world audience which may include a future employer... Eric says, "likewise, if we help students develop rhetorical astuteness their ability to adapt to the various standards of correctness elsewhere will see them through *and* serve them well post-college" Flame_Guest has disconnected. The housekeeper arrives to remove Flame_Guest. Guest materializes out of thin air. The housekeeper arrives to cart judi off to bed. Guest says, "Are Paul and Charlie here?" Eric says, "hi guest. charlie is" Marcy wishes it were as easy as talking about it, Eric . . . far easier to correct grammar mistakes . . . *sigh* Mauve_Guest says, "Yo, Guest --- Charlie here" Guest says, "Hi, Eric--it's me Gail--sorry I'm late." mday says, "Let's see. Guest is... Gail?" mday go ti! Mauve_Guest says, "Who's "Guest"?" nickc wonders to what degree literacy is really about fluency, the ability to progress seemlessly in culture --whether rhetorically, online, etc. People seem always to see deviation as intimationsof illiteracy Marcy says, "Hiya, Gail." Eric says, "I think part of the difficulty, marcy, is the belief that it's difficult. all it takes is collective will to change" Eric says, "that's all ;)" mday waves to Gail Marcy nods nickc. Eric says, "hi gail!" GregS continues by noting that many people in his department do more to keep us print- and essay-bound than anyone else in the academy. Our FYcomp teachers are continually concerned about teaching literary analysis over other writing skills so the students can succeed in our second comp class, one with a lit focus. Mauve_Guest charlie waves to Gail Guest says, "Hi Marcy--it's nice to see you!" Marcy brb. Bedtime. Guest waves to Charlie MikeS [to Guest]: hello The housekeeper arrives to cart brice off to bed. nickc waves to Gail GregS <- frustrated...sorry. :-) Guest says, "Everybody seems to be being carted off to bed" mday likes Wayne Booth's model for the future university. Centered on rhetoric, it is. Guest says, "It's an e hour earlier here in Illinoi" nickc [to Guest]: they were all logged in from England--MOOlag got em Guest says, "Where did Booth write this, Mike?" mday is carting dinner off to his computer cubicle GregS [to mday]: well classical rhet was more synthetic than departmental. Mauve_Guest says, "Greg --- Kay Moran *wanted* to be an English major, but she did not see the *point*! So she studied history, wrote short stories, and is now a journalist. English and Writing seemed to her to be in different worlds!" Marcy's back. mday heard Booth give a talk on this to the UC Berkeley Eng dept in about 1987. It must have been published somewhere shortly thereafter...? Guest says, "Note Charlie how you and I seem to want to talk more than act." MikeS went the literature route and just got bored of it! Eric says, "I think we should all start a pr campaign to promote change. sing along with me now, "change is easy/ change is fun/ change is cool/ let it run!" Guest has disconnected. The housekeeper arrives to remove Guest. Mauve_Guest Charlie shrugs at Gail --- an action! MikeS laughs w/ eris You say, "I notice that with students who want to be writers the portions of the course which get academic turn them off the most, more than people who don't care on way or another about writing" mday went the lit route too and ended up in Rhet/comp. too bored. Marcy says, "Are we discounting speech acts, Gail?" GregS [to Mauve_Guest]: that makes sense...and also explains why so many communications courses are linked more with speech and journalism than English. [Greg starts channeling Connors and Berlin essays] MikeS [to Marcy]: is this writing or speech act? Mauve_Guest says, "Gail -- interesting --- *talking* is what we're doing! But my fingers are about to fly off in ten direections! This typing-stuff us hard!" Marcy says, "Don't ask me, Mike, I can't tell the difference." mday [to nickc]: but they do care about writing that matters. It's a survival issue here. Guest materializes out of thin air. MikeS lol MikeS says, "two plain guests?" Marcy says, "No, I'm serious. Well, half serious, anyway." Guest says, "I keep on hitting my delete or backspace key and throw myself out of here" MikeS [to Marcy]: that's why i'm laughing. i can't laugh unless something is at stake. MikeS turns stern mday says, "Charlie you get used to typing and reading at the same time." Marcy says, "Ever had the experience of thinking, whoa, this is too heavy, I wish I were online t=dealing with it?" MikeS is still a hunt/peck typist I don't understand that. Guest says, ""so what's everybody been talking about?" mday says, "and reading for the info you want and ignoring all the other spam on the screen." Marcy says, "Cahrlie, you get used to missing a lot." Marcy says, "You get used to typos, too." Guest says, "How's your summer, Marcy?" mday says, "Gail we talked about the history/future of the book and your book." Mauve_Guest says, "Great, Marcy. this is an exercise in *not* proofreading! My colleague Peter E. would approve. " Marcy says, "Gail, the future of publishing, the future of the discipline, the state of education . . . stuff like that." mday says, "and how publishers will survive the switch to the network, and if.." mday can't afford to proofread. You say, "and whether Ablex will host a party at CCCC" Guest says, "Did our book get a better history than the *real* book?" Marcy says, "Gail, it's 50 degrees today. It was 90 yesterday." Guest says, "a better future I mean?" MikeS [Narc Detector] . o O ( if mday is right i better stop putting off learning html ) mday [to nickc]: ROFL Marcy says, "And if Ablex's hors d'oeuvres willbe any good . . ." mday [to Marcy]: it's 40 here and snowing just uphill. Guest says, "Charlie, have you done a MOO before?" Marcy says, "How does it snow uphill?" mday rolls on the floor laughing. Eric [to gail]: the log will be on the web by the morn... Mauve_Guest says, "Gail --- how did you know? Yes --- my first MOO. " mday says, "uphill from HERE. Like, in the mountains just up the road." Guest says, "Here too Marcy" Marcy eyes mday warily. MikeS thinks that was a rhetorical question, so to speak Marcy says, "Gonna be a lousy summer for growing peppers." mday heartily welcomes Gail and Charlie to mooing. It can be disorienting but a lot of fun and certainly productive. Guest says, "Charlie, you'll note that i"m no expert to put it mildly!" Eric thinks charlie must be a natural mooer Guest says, "Yes, I think Charlie is too!" GregS thanks everyone for the chat and great discussions over the past several weeks. He must wander offline now. He smiles and wishes all pleasant evenings. You say, "The last week of messages, which spun off of Gail's snap and lead to consideration of online ethnographies and community were interesting. Greg--what did you and sdf with come up with as far as triangulation goes?" Marcy says, "You guys are doing great. Haven't done the ol' "" once." Guest says, "He has the right sense of humor for it" MikeS waves to gregs GregS says, "holds on for a sec on that one..." GregS says, "mavs" Mauve_Guest Charlie waves to Greg S and hopes to meet him (flesh) sometime! MikeS [to Mauve_Guest]: utah? You say, "mavs?" Guest says, "Is everybody saying good-bye? Nothing like coming in a on a finished discussion!" Juli materializes out of thin air. mday isn't MikeS is staying Mauve_Guest Charlie enthusiastically nods to Mike S, losing his glasses in the process. Juli says, "" mday welcomes Juli form Hawaii Juli says, "aloha" mday says, "from" Aliens eat the brain of mday [the rhetronymical]'s typist. MikeS picks up fallen spectacles mday [the rhetronymical] calls the wrath of God down upon eir typist. GregS says, "well, as mary deffenbaugh brought up, we need to consider ways in which these people interact in other electronic, print, and f2f forums as well...if appllicable. And discussing initial findings with informants is traditionally valued." MikeS hands over said specs Mauve_Guest Charlie thanks MikeS Juli says, "" Eric says, "we should hear from Gail what she might say to nick's kickoff question" Guest says, "Is Juli Judi Kirkpatrick?" Marcy says, "Which is why it's snowing where you live, mday. Your typist lives too cloe to you." Marcy says, "close." Juli says, "sorry, trying this thing from pennmoo where you can avoid neding tf for a bit" mday says, "what's up Juli? We'r having a spirited discussion on technorhetoric" Mauve_Guest says, "Kay Moran has just wondered why I'm sitting here typing and laughing. New behavior, chiefly." mday says, "No, but Juli is prof of theater at UH, right?" Juli says, "sorry to interrupt. Just wondered if you knew if I could change object ownership " Marcy says, "Can you show the slide again, Nick?" Juli says, "Yees, UH thea prof" Guest says, "Charlie, if you're mauve guest, what sort of guest am I" GregS says, "Night!" GregS goes home. mday says, "Charlie, Howard Rheingold said the same thing in his book on virtual communities" Marcy says, "Charlie, once I was having a beer during a Tuesday cafe, and my husband came in the room and he thought I was drinking alone! Alone! Ha, ha!!" Mauve_Guest says, "Gail --- seems as if you are plain vanilla. Entirely out of character!" nickc [to Guest]: the kickoff question was: Was there any issue or idea raised in the symposium which you will revisit in your thinking or writing or which has led you to think about things differently? Tari peers at Marcy nickc shows slide #3. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Rather than attempting to list 'highlights' from the e-mail discussion which went on for a little over four weeks, we'd like instead to have those who participated in the symposium as either presenters, participating posters-of-messages, or participating readers-of-messages, begin by sharing their sense of what was most interesting or thought provoking for them. Were there any ideas or issues raised in the symposium which you will be thinking further about, that you may choose to write about, teach about, or find yourself thinking differently about? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * mday [to Marcy]: ahh I unnerstand what you mean! Guest says, "Hi Tari--I missed seeing that you were here?" -----------------------------------Eric------------------------------------ ------ Eric [GPC] stops pasting ---------- Eric has disconnected. Guest says, "How's it going in Mass?" Eric has connected. MikeS says, "uh-oh, looks like eric crashed" mday says, "looks like Eric hit the @paste bug" Tari [to Guest]: it's just going -----------------------------------Eric------------------------------------ Nick said: Were there any ideas or issues raised in the symposium which you will be thinking further about, that you may choose to write about, teach about, or find yourself thinking differently about? ------ Eric [GPC] stops pasting ---------- % You have new mail in /usr/spool/mail/nickc mday is this working --Juli Tari says, "@paste crashes muddweller?" Guest says, "hmmmm--wish it sounded better!" MikeS says, "lag" mday says, "@paste crashes Zterm on my Mac" Eric says, "no. muddweller just crashes on it's own sometimes. makes life interesting ;)" Tari says, "oic" You say, "Mass is fun now, three areas coming up, writhing--writing a fair amount, and the weather's been well enough to keep the girls running sothey're tired at night" Guest says, "at least you didn't crash hitting your own delete key!" mday says, "O= Oh, I= I, C = see." mday says, "OIC" Guest says, "OIC" Marcy has been having a wonderful summer in the midwest. You say, "OSCYC" MikeS says, "lol=Laughs Out Loud (something i use often" mday says, "BRB= Be Right BAck" Guest hasn't started her summer yet inthe midwest Marcy OICUC MikeS says, "rolf, IMNSHO" mday feels far from summer Marcy is finally getting Enough Exercise. Happens every June, and June only . . . MikeS was in summer yesterday but early spring today Guest says, "ahhh, Michael!" cath wishes she could send some summer to gail & mday -- it's in the 90's in Little rock Guest says, "much prefers early spring!" mday says, "both in work and weather." Tari says, "it's very weird not to start summer with a big relief about spring term ending" Mauve_Guest says, "BMLAGA = Both My Legs Are Going Asleep. Which is indeed true." MikeS says, "me michael or mday michael?" Eric smiles at charlies Marcy lol at bmlaga Guest says, "Sorry MikeS, I meant the South Dakota Michael" nickc [to Mauve_Guest]: got to get a vibrating chair cath [to MikeS]: You too if it's still winter where you are Guest says, "a vibrating chair--honestly!" Mauve_Guest says, "just strolled about the room. Improved greatly. " Guest says, "Charlie what workshops were you doing?" mday says, "Yes, you do need to get up from time to time." MikeS says, "na, spring has sprung. planted flowers and everything!" Marcy says, "Helps if you have little kids who want stuff from you." nickc [to Guest]: it's a good way to collect quarters Guest says, "Where are you from Mike s.?" MikeS [to Guest]: mike salvo, binghamton, new york (SUNY Binghamton Mauve_Guest says, "Gail--- been doing Writing Project workshops --- we're contraacted with half-a-dozen schools and in there two or three days/week. Whatever happened to Eng. Lit? Long, long gone. Many careers ago!" MikeS arrived late Guest says, "Oh, hi Mike, I should have recognized you!" MikeS laughs MikeS says, "you've got enough going on here in the MOO w/o worrying about me!" Guest says, "For how long, Charlie?" MikeS shakes gail's hand Mauve_Guest says, "Gail --- these have been year-long projects." Guest shakes Mike's hand You say, "I've actually found I enjoy reading more now that I don't automatically read with a lit. theory in mind" Marcy says, "The elementary school my kids go to is offering -- requiring -- teachers to attend a Writing Process Workshop this year." MikeS agrees emphatically with nickc Guest says, "Hmnnn, Marcy--who's doingit?" Eric says, "gotta get kids to bed. be back soon" Marcy says, "I dunno, Gail, but I'm sort of, um, worried about it . . ." Mauve_Guest says, "Marcy --- I hope the teachers survive! 'Writing Process' is almost a cant term these days. " mday says, "me too nick. It was what almost drove me from Berkeley, reading only lit.tehory and feeling VERY small." MikeS [to nickc]: i started reading V again. tis time i'm *enjoying* it Guest says, "But how long do the workshops go ion this summer, Charlie?" Marcy nodsnodsnods Charlie. nickc [to Marcy]: my daughter's kindergarten teacher is part of the alternative assessment committee for the district; we have lots of fun at parten teacher conferences Juli says, "Hey, I love lit theory :)" Marcy says, "I did a really cool thing in my daughter's kindergarten class last week." Mauve_Guest says, "Gail --- we have two one-week workshops, one four-week workshop, and" MikeS [to nickc]: sorry, that was supposed to be _Vineland_ mday likes it too, but within reason. At Berkeley it had elephaniasis. Juli says, "s'not that scary but it is a bit midtakingoverish" Guest says, "Hmnnn--sounds busy Charlie--I remember you had them last summer too" Marcy says, "The kids made trail mix, and wrote up their recipes, and we made a recipe book with all of them, and everybody's reactions to each other's (they got totaste them all." mday says, "elephanTiasis I meant" MikeS had his mind invaded by posties Tari says, "ow, i got lag-spammed" Mauve_Guest says, "Damn! Sorry. What I was about to say: and a four-week program for kid-writers in the Springfield "Damn again! Schools. I'll never get used to not using the carriage return! Sorry, all." Guest says, "Your children or students, Marircy?" Tari does not try to read all the scrollback that just rushed in Marcy says, "The kids in my daughter's kindergarten class." mday [to Tari]: was happening to me a lot last night but tonight I seem rather OK MikeS [to Mauve_Guest]: don't worry about any of it. just type. nickc [to Marcy]: maybe you can get the local mountaineering club to publish it Guest says, "At least you're not hitting delete, Charlie" Marcy says, "Nick, _I_ published it." mday woos marcy Juli says, "bye all! I"m going over to athemoo to try Tari's suggestion" Tari [to mday]: the problem is i'm telnetted 9 ways from sunday before i even crank up the mud client mday raises a MOObrew & proposes a toast: "To the best darn MOOver and shaker, Marcy" Marcy says, "It would make mountaineers flinch and die . . ." Juli says, "if you want to come any time it's uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu 7777" Guest says, "Ah, what a great idea--the trail mix and your way of teaching wriitng sort of go together Marciy!" Marcy says, "Git the idea from Anne Hunt." nickc [to Marcy]: just goes to show Moms are tougher than he men Tari will check it out, Juli--thanks1 Guest says, "That's a compliment!" mday has noticed that you never log off, Tari. And how many other moos you must be on! Marcy says, "Got. " MikeS crunches Juli waves g'bye! Juli has disconnected. Tari [to mday]: i just run screen Tari never logs out of Connections, media, mirror, lambda, or jhm mday has screen too. Has to master all the keyboard commands. Marcy says, "Just goes to show that little kids can tolerate grease & sugar better than he-men . . ." Guest says, "Sigh, I'll never learn all this Moo stuff" Tari says, "except to clean up when i've been runing screen to long, or the connection just dies" Tari says, "running, even" Marcy says, "Oh, Gail . . . just ask Tari what you need to know when you need to know it." MikeS [to Guest]: don't try to lrearn it. i ask the knowledgeable to do it *for me* )(ask, they'll tell Spif [to Guest]: heck, I haven't learned ALL of 'this MOO stuff' yet, and I administrate a MOO :) mday says, "Ahh, all jargon, but I'm at a tech school now, so if I wanna walk the walk...." Tari giggles at Marcy. Guest says, "Michael Day, you'll have to acced that I'm better now than last summer" Guest says, ":))" Tari says, "or ask marcy, who knows everything and isn't telling" Guest smiles and grins nickc [to Guest]: neither will I--but knowing MOOs is like gardens--you can either cultivate a garden who cultivate friends who garden Marcy rofl. mday does, Gail. You are a regular MOO ace now. Guest smiles and grins at everyone! Mauve_Guest says, "This mini-mooer is signing off --- journalist spouse has to be at work at 6, so we're up at 5. It's been real!" Marcy nods nickc. Virtual zuccini are a lot easier to cope with, too. mday says, "Take care, Charlie!" MikeS waves to mauve-guest cath waves at charlie MikeS says, "nice meeting you!" nickc waves to Charlie--thanks for coming Marcy says, "Real. I like that, Charlie. Please come back." Mauve_Guest Charlie waves at all Guest says, "Say hi to Kay, Charlie!" Mauve_Guest has disconnected. The housekeeper arrives to remove Mauve_Guest. mday dittos the please come back mday says, "mistem" MikeS applauds house-keeping staff Marcy says, "Real. ANd he prolly wasn't even trying to be funny." Tari says, "bloses" Tari sighs, nice net Marcy says, "So, Gail, what are you up to this summer?" Guest says, "see mistem and bloses, a whole language you'all have" Marcy says, "I forgot." Guest says, "you forgot?" MikeS scratches his head at "bloses" Tari says, "bloses=bye+loses, as in i started to type 'bye' to charlie but i mistem" mday says, "Just contractions" You say, "I'm going to show the final slide, the one that wraps up, and then turn off thelog" Tari eyes herself warily. Marcy says, "Well, you rattled off a bunch of stuff in the parking lot . . ." nickc shows slide #4. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Thank you all for coming. This log will be available soon in Rhetnet. If you have an essay or idea for a symposium or collaborative writing project for Rhetnet, please feel free to contact Eric Crump, Cybereditor in Chief. Thanks to Greg Siering and Tari Fanderclai for the use of the Netoric Project's Netoric Headquarters for Tonights MOO. If you would like to learn more about the Netoric Project's Tuesday Cafe discussions, or to suggest topics for discussions you can contact either Greg or Tari. E-Mail Addresses for Contacting Eric---> wleric@showme.missouri.edu Tari---> tari@oz.net Greg---> 00gjsiering@bsuvc.bsu.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * mday oh nos! Not the final slide! Guest ah I see Marcy says, "No, Gail, that should be O I C." MikeS giggles mday rolls on the floor laughing. Guest says, "I too will sign off--but I thank you for all being such gracious hosts!" % logoff: no such command or macro The housekeeper arrives to cart Juli off to bed.